D&D Next & Quantum RPG
- January 10th, 2012
- Posted in Musings
- By Mockingbard
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I’m sure you’ve heard the expected announcement that the next edition of Dungeons & Dragons is coming. We all knew this, in our hearts, and there is a lot of room for success or failure here. Wizards of the Coast are going to be doing something interesting with it though. They’ll be running open playtests and asking for public input. I encourage you to sign up to get involved. You have some control, this time, over what the next edition of D&D will be like.
I think that people who like D&D3.5 are playing Pathfinder and people who like D&D 4e are playing it. D&D 5e or D&D Next or whatever, seems like it will try to be everything to everyone and make a system that appeals to both those groups as well as the really Old School players of 1st Edition and the like. It’s a tall order and if they can pull it off it could be amazing. But the big risk here is alienating the 4e players by discontinuing support for their favourite edition, not interesting the Pathfinder players enough because they’re already happy with what they’ve got, and not bringing the OSR people back into the fold either. If that happens, then WotC may potentially lose more players and fans than they’ll gain. I hope this is not the case.
I hope that the modular system they’re planning can be something great like Savage Worlds or Burning Wheel. Basic core rules that everyone shares, with added granularity and optional modules if desired. I hope they focus on roleplaying, not hundreds of pages of rules. I’ll be giving feedback and I know a lot of people will want a lot of different things. For me, I want a classless system (with optional class templates) that is as simple to run for a single player as it is for five or six. I want a game that focuses on story and rules that get out of the way so you can roleplay and have a fun time. I want simple but cinematic combats and easy to adjudicate rules for combat.
I want a lot of other things too, and some other systems already provide these. Savage Worlds is my go-to system at the moment. In its current state, Pathfinder is too rules heavy for my liking with too many options and side-cases, while 4e is too streamlined and restricting in many ways. I like both systems well enough but they’re not the primary system for me. 5e could be the one. Who knows? I’ll be providing my feedback and wishes and we’ll see what happens. Best of luck to the community. I hope the developers listen and I hope that we get a D&D that feels like D&D and makes a lot of people happy.
On a final related note, look out for the open playtest for the Quantum RPG in coming months and check out the Infinite X forums for updates on the project. Quantum RPG is a new science-fantasy roleplaying game by Joshua Frost of Paizo fame. He has already presented lots of interesting ideas about where the system will be going. He is also committed to a product representing males and females equally, which got my interest after seeing too many scantily clad women on RPG products, including Paizo’s.
Quantum RPG sounds like its going in a different direction with some familiar roots. D&D 5e sounds like it’s trying to cater to its players and build the game they want. I’m looking forward to hearing more about the development of both and I will definitely be playtesting both systems. Interesting times lay ahead for the roleplaying community.
After the abomination known as Dungeons of Warcraft (4e) I really could care what WOTC produces.
I still remember when my 2e gaming stopped pretty much overnight when all my friends got rid of their AD&D material to get those Magic The Gathering cards.
When 3e came out, and I realized it was made by “that damn card company” I wanted nothing to do with it at all. It was only when a friend (who I respect) told me I should at least give it a look and let me use his 2e to 3e conversion book. I realized that it was the same game pretty much, just made a little more sense (Base Attack Bonus vs THAC0 comes to mind, not that THAC0 was a problem.)
I read a post by Jeff Grubb talking about 5e and the “Edition Wars” at http://grubbstreet.blogspot.com/2012/01/game-divided-against-itself.html He indicates that the business model was ‘if it was cool enough the grogs would come back into the fold’ and that the business model didn’t care ‘if any player of 2nd edition came over to 3rd’.
He’s right. They made it cool enough that I went to 3e. I went over not only because they didn’t totally screw up the mechanics and actually expanded on them, but because of the creation of the OGL and the sheer amount of resources available. I’m one of those guys where I don’t wish to deal with 10 different systems to play 10 different games. I want one huge system with a vast library of resources at my disposal. The more resources at my disposal, the more resources I can disassemble, tweak how I like, and reassemble.
I “acquired” the PDFs of 4th edition. I took my time and studied them and found out what this new edition was all about. I read all the forums and blogs bemoaning 4e and I had my reservations but I was willing to do a single campaign. The experience was totally not what I was looking for in a tabletop RPG and I conveniently got myself killed off mid campaign as a good excuse.
It was after this that I discovered WOTC had rescinded the d20STL and had gone away from the OGL. I read what Sean K. Reynolds and other industry professionals had to say regarding the new “GSL”. It was bad enough that their new version of D&D played more like World of Warcraft or Diablo 2 but then they had to make this very restrictive license and go to a closed system. After that, I saw the “Red Dragon Interview” flash cartoon which you can see at http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/toon/20080910a I think this is very telling. The red dragon (D&D) and the peon kobolds giving idol worship to it (the 4e fanboys and their idol worship) and if you’re critical of the new product, in WOTC eyes you are nothing but a troll to be shit on.
It’s evident that with 4e WOTC threw guys like me under the bus. They have a new demographic that they are targeting and clearly people like me are not it. They want the MMO generation and are willing to alienate loyal long time players in the process.
Don’t get me wrong I like video games but when I am playing a tabletop RPG I am looking for a completely different experience. If I want to have the MMO experience I can sit at my computer, in my boxer shorts, smoking a cigarette and drinking a beer. With the MMO experience I don’t have to deal with trying to organize the meet, and find a location, and get my stuff together and all that. Bottom line is when I want an MMO I want an MMO and when I want tabletop RPGs I want a tabletop RPG. That’s the first mistake WOTC made.
The 2nd mistake was going to a highly restrictive license and a closed system. This is the 21st century. This is the information age. The internet is pretty much a commodity. The OGL revolutionized the industry. WOTC let that genie out of the bottle and it’s here to stay. I know this because when they rescinded the d20STL they’d have ended the OGL if they could have. The d20 SRD and the d20 Modern SRD are here to stay as well and WOTC has given permission to anybody and everybody to do as they wish as long as they adhere to the provisions of the OGL.
What I don’t think WOTC planned on was the savvy of the tabletop RPG community. Paizo has proven you can take the OGL and the d20 SRD and successfully market a system. I’m even working on my own system. I’ve gotten to the point that about the only system I’ll be truly happy with is one I’ve put together myself and also because it’s that “next level” for me as far as personal accomplishment. Frankly the only difference between myself and Paizo is Paizo has a whole crew and a lot of capital.
Open Gaming is the future. Open Gaming (much like Open Source Software) promotes creativity, innovation and a stronger sense of community. Closed systems do nothing but end creativity and innovation and in this case, fragment the community (3e vs 4e etc)
In their defense I know why they went to a closed system. They realized that people were pretty much only buying their core books (the PHB, the DMG and the MM) and then promptly going out and buying products from AEG and Mongoose and Privateer Press and the like. They saw the OGL as a failure when the only failure was them not enforcing it better.
The “Edition War” is really two and mindsets butting heads. It’s like Linux vs Windows. Yes, “D&D” is the big dog and always has been, but it’s only been 4 years and they’re working on a new edition? They brought Monte Cook back in. They’re talking about an open beta testing. They’re talking all this stuff but by now who is really going to care?
Personally I think the only ones that will really care about 5e are the people that currently rave about 4e. I don’t think anybody in the Open Gaming Movement will care about 5e unless it goes back to the OGL. I know pretty much won’t care.
Of course, as I’ve told many people regarding 4e: “What do you expect from a card game company that is now owned by a kid’s toy company? I’d much rather deal with a product BY tabletop gamers FOR tabletop gamers.” and it’s a good thing for them that’s the case. If WOTC didn’t have Magic the Gathering and Hasbro’s money backing them and only had D&D revenue they’d be gone as we speak.
So my advice to them: Go back to Open Gaming. It’s the future. You guys made a good product. I guess it was easier to go the 4e route than to enforce the OGL and heaven forbid make some fresh, exciting material like brand new campaign settings and the like. If they insist on going down the disastrous road that they are, then I hope they fall flat on their faces and lose their ass and go bankrupt, because you’ll have deserved it.
@BossMan Thanks for the post and the links BossMan.
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying here. Most of my favourite 3e products were OGL books from companies other than WotC. The Freeport stuff comes to mind, particularly. I love the OGL and the capacity for innovation and creativity it allows. Paizo has shown just how far one can go with it and how successful they can be. And it’s great that it allows people like you and me to make what we want, too.
Honestly, I was pretty excited for 4e when I heard about it because Pathfinder was a bit too complex for what I was looking for at the time. We had played a lot of 3e and then several long campaigns using Pathfinder and enjoyed it greatly but I was ready for something more streamlined and rules-light. WotC said that was what 4e would offer. Snippets and previews looked promising but the final product was not what I expected. I agree that it seemed more like a video game in some ways than a tabletop game. Like you, I enjoy both but want my tabletop games to be about the roleplaying rather than emulating video game traits. This is fine and I’m sure very enjoyable for some, but not really for me.
Monte is back, yes, and they’re talking about beta testing. Paizo, who now outsell WotC, had both those things too, interestingly enough. After how 4e ended up, I’m not nearly as excited about 5e, despite the good signs. I am curious, but that’s about it. I’ll put my finger on the pulse every so often, but the edition wars don’t interest me and I’ll play whatever works for me and whatever’s fun.
After a great time with Pathfinder then my trial of 4e I branched out to indie games, small press games and other things. Savage Worlds, Lady Blackbird, Dungeon World and so on. I used to really care about sticking to core rules, but nothing was quite right for me so I messed with the systems a lot. Now I’m not beholden to a particular company or edition or game. There are a lot of good games out there and a lot of good supplements and anyone can tweak that stuff too, if it’s Open.
I agree with you about the OGL and really hope that WotC supports Open Gaming with their next system. It would allow for more innovation and if it’s done right it can be a great thing for the hobby and the industry.
Thanks again for your comment.
@Mockingbard
Testing I think my old post went gone
@BossMan I see a nice long post from you dated “January 16th, 2012 4:52am” that I responded to on “January 16th, 2012 8:52pm”. Do you see all that, or do you mean another post got lost in the system? I don’t see anything there to approve. Now that I’ve approved your first comment, all your others automatically go through.
Not to sound like some anti-corporate guy, but the reason that some of the best material for 3e was made by 3rd party publishers is that they were the smaller guys making games for fun. Sure, they were trying to make money but they were also companies not backed by mega-companies like Hasbro. What WOTC did with 3e was pretty much take all the stuff we loved from 2nd Edition AD&D and revamp it. For example I love Forgotten Realms and I always have. I’ve read the lore about 4e Forgotten Realms and it seems cool but cool enough that I will endure another 4e session.
Of course Pathfinder didn’t exactly “do it” for you. I don’t care what any raving Pathfinder fanboi says, Pathfinder is the d20 system expanded. That’s it. I’m sure it was something a little different and a nice change of pace but that’s it. This is why I say I love the fact that Paizo was able to market their system, but in reality outside of character generation I personally don’t see anything to write home about.
And while I’m on the subject of Pathfinder. To anybody reading this, don’t be so naive to think that Pathfinder was made to “complement” 3rd edition. Pathfinder was made as a response to 4e. It’s no secret when WOTC ended 3rd edition they ended the Dungeon and Dragon magazines. That’s what Paizo did before Pathfinder. Yes, I’m going there. Like it or not Paizo made Pathfinder as a result of their extreme butt-hurt. LOL. The only reason it’s even compatible at all with 3rd edition is because the d20 SRD is the foundation of Pathfinder. And also don’t be so naive to think that Paizo is somehow single-handed in “keeping the OGL alive”. There’s many OGL products out there, many of them being indie games.
I’ve read a little Q&A session about “D&D Next” and it had Monte Cook in it. From what I’ve read it looks like they’re going to make some effort to “make up” for what they did in 4th Edition. It’s a nice sentiment but I wonder if it’s too little too late. I’ve followed Monte Cook’s stuff since the ICE days, so him having a lot of input in 5e will get me to at least look at it, but I can’t promise anything beyond that.
The reason I say this is because I’m now speaking as somebody who is going through the pains and effort to make his own system. As I said before, I’m at the point where the only system I’ll be truly happy with is one I’ve assembled myself, even if all I do is take a lot of SRDs and rework them from the ground up and combine them into one mega game.
In my quest to do this, I have been introduced to a few indie games and I’ll be honest. I think many of them are really great but again I’m one of them guys I’m not too into learning 10 different systems to play 10 different games, but if it’s an OGL licensed game and has some solid Open Gaming Content I won’t be objected to implementing something in my game.
I think pretty soon you might get to the point that I’m at now. I think you’ll realize that while playing other people’s product will give you a good temporary fix, you’ll be happiest making your own system.
As far as the streamlining and rules light I’ll tell you like I’ve told a lot of folks. Don’t look to the system to solve this issue. If a game isn’t streamlined out of the box, then MAKE it streamlined. There is no RPG Police. Back in the 1e and 2e days Gygax and Arneson openly encouraged you to take out things you don’t like and redo them.
I remember a time when this hobby catered to the uber geek. They liked immersion gaming. They liked the complexities and the intricacies and the attention to detail. If we wanted to play a video game we’d play a video game. IMHO we need to go back to that idea. I tell a lot of people if you want as streamlined and rules light as possible stick to the computer/console RPGs and the adventure games.
I also tell them that this hobby has a trade off. Life is full of trade offs. 4e has shown that if you get too much streamlining and too much rules light..then guess what it’s going to be less of an experience of a tabletop RPG and more like playing an MMO on paper.
The solution is people need to change their approach and their mindset. Instead of expecting the system to handle this stuff, maybe as DMs and players they need to rethink how they’re doing things? Just an idea.